[split] Christians talking shop

I also do not like the term numerology, but most people have no idea what I'm talking about if I refer to Kabalarian Philosophy. Yes, I'm a philosophy nut, just love any books in particular that draw connections between (apparently) different ideologies or fields of study. Art and science, math and music, etc. My recent interest in Christianity is based on some metaphysical experiences in the past 5 years, seemingly inspired by my father-in-law passing away, my mother being on life support for 3 days (and returning to us!) and my then 9-year-old son declaring he was a Christian even though my husband and I were totally uninvolved, and very skeptical, of any church. What I've realized is that it isn't Christianity (or any other faith for that matter) per se that's the fault of so many wars, poverty, and guilt-ridden dogmas, but "the people", or man, that choose to interpret to his political, financial, power driven advantage.

My mother grew up in downtown Toronto raised by a south of Ireland Roman Catholic mother, and her grandfather on her father's side founded a religion in Scotland based on reincarnation and vegetarianism. It is still active today, called The Order of the Cross. It's quite rigid on the vegetarian aspect. My mother's family was very poor, yet my grandfather would still have shoes made from canvas in order not to violate the rules. So I come by my eclectic beliefs, if you can call them that, quite naturally. I have discovered in the last few years a direct connection between numbers and language based on a beginner's study of the Kabbalah. This is not the stuff of Madonna calibre, although I'm not sure exactly what that's all about, so I probably shouldn't say that.

I'm interested in your experience with the number 23, as I was born on the 23rd of March, and hardly ever meet anyone with the same birth DAY. I believe the various translations of the Bible are pretty consistent with numbers. Original manuscripts would be beyond my English or French vocabulary! I'll have to check out the Illuminatus! trilogy, and The Ring, so I know what your references are. I absolutely love your abbreviated mantra, and will add it to mine. Thanks for starting this new thread; I look forward to more posts!

What I've realized is that it isn't Christianity (or any other faith for that matter) per se that's the fault of so many wars, poverty, and guilt-ridden dogmas, but "the people", or man, that choose to interpret to his political, financial, power driven advantage.

-"jocelain"

Ding ding ding ding ding! I swear, you should win some kind of prize for saying so. It needs to be said more often.

I actually have bad associations with 'Kabbalah' as well; it's filed under 'cult' in my mind. Can you give me a basic intro to it so I can properly file it?

Not saying I've had 'experience' with 23. A few years back, I read the Illuminatus! trilogy (well, the first book), which was heavy on the symbology of 5 and 23. Between that and the Jim Carrey movie (which I haven't seen yet, but want to), 23 seems like a funny number that people get all bent-up about. I then hypocritically notice it in places.

If you're planning on reading the trilogy, take seriously this word of advice: TAKE NOTES. Mark who characters are and what they're doing. I wish I had done so. The books are written to be confusing and labyrinthine (since they focus on Eris, mythical goddess of chaos). I think that if you keep track of things a little bit, you'll unlock a much more interesting story than all that I glazed through.

Hi again,

I'm sure there are those out there who know more about the origins of the Kabbalah than I do, so feel free to correct my freshman beginning translation. Originally, the Kabbalah was written in the Judaic alphabet, which is quite complicated. One of the key concepts is that there is a strong relationship between letters and numbers. Apparently the "highers up" in the Jewish faith were aware of the power of the connection, and even at one time were responsible for naming children. Language as a whole is very powerful, and represents the superiority of man's ability to communicate conceptually with each other. Some also believe that the date you were born, based on the numbers they represent, helps to determine your potential and purpose in life. Nomenology probably covers this topic better than the popular numerology descriptions.

The essential principle of the Kabalarian Society (which is not Judaic in and of itself) is that numbers, letters, mind, language and reason are inextricably connected. If you google Kabalarian Society, you will find references to cult aspects which were a result of media coverage of a scandal back in the '90's. It's a real scandal, the perpetrator served his sentence, but insiders claim it was a set up by disgruntled competition for leadership within the group. I am studying their philosophy, and have been for a couple of years now. It draws on many historical references, including bible passages, but the founder had studied eastern religions and judaism as well. He was also a skeptic of so-called psychics, and joins Houdini in having exposed many societal scams. His name was Alfred Parker.

I'm sure the combination of 2plus3 equalling 5 didn't elude you. This influence has helped me to jump from project to project, job to job, man to man, always looking for greener grass on the other side! I read a great Christian book called The Walkout Woman, which perfectly describes me until I became aware of some of the negative energy of this number. On the positive side, it's enthusiasm, adventurous and frequently positive in perspective. There's much more to it, and the more I learn, the more I realize I want to keep going! Obviously in my bible study group I'm a bit of an anomaly. But our minister is of Jewish descent, and converted to Christianity, so has a very deep perspective on the subject. Sometimes she just laughs at me!

I googled Illuminata and just got this interesting sculpture. Ha ha. So now I know, I'll check out the book.

The Walk-Out Woman does indeed sound excellent. I'll keep it in mind in case I'm ever in such a situation.

No, I don't understand your 2+3=5 magic. I've been digging to try and figure out what bugs me about this whole numerology thing, and I think I've found it: It just seems unnecessary. I mean, you've got the Bible right there, it's a gushing fountain of wisdom, and you're over here trying to find secret number codes in it. Can't see the forest for the trees sortofthing, if that makes any sense.

If you need a place to get the trilogy, try #ebooks on IRCHighway. Best ebook channel around. If you need help, do /query FekketCantenel and I'll walk you through it.

Don't count your Bibles before they hatch.

Er. Before you read them.

:)

I got an email once about how many times Satan is said in the Qu'ran versus Jesus/Mary/Moses/Muhammad/Abraham (they were all counted). I think death and life are said an equal number of times. Or sin and salvation. Really I can't remember. Things like that seem so unnecessary though, I agree. I don't need mystical word counting and associations to convince me to read a book and try to take something away from it. It's much more useful to try to follow the book than try to convince others of its divine qualities by finding "hidden secrets" (more likely coincidences).

Edit - I thought I'd add that I DO find the associations interesting... But I have trouble taking them seriously.

I hear you both. And I'm not "counting" as I read the Bible. My point is that there are many dimensions to all goodness. And many sources and interpretations of wisdom. We could equally be having this discussion on the I Ching (Chinese Book of Changes), Bhagavad Gita, Dead Sea Scrolls, Qu'ran, etc. Not being interested in another perspective doesn't mean it is to be discounted. Or silly. The Bible is an amazing book, with many, many layers. As I'm sure you have both experienced, repeated readings of a same passage reveal new truths. Or relevance. As such, I believe we are "designed" to dig deeper and broader. As you say, the sum of the parts is greater than the individual "trees".

Thanks so much for sharing your perspectives! I continue to soak up the wisdom of the Bible. Not counting words, just interested in the significance of numbers in the bible, ie how often days are numbered (ie, Jesus was in the dessert for 40 days and 40 nights), the crowd numbered 4000, and was fed with 7 loaves of bread, or 5,000 and fed with 4 loaves of bread, etc. (may not be accurate here, just out of my head) More often specific than general. In terms of ages of people, quantities, etc. Jonah being 3 days in the whale predicting Jesus' 3 days in the tomb. Anyway, no worries, we all have our different insights, and travel the same path.

Thanks for the lead on the Illuminata!

For some reason I feel compelled to pitch in, although quite honestly, I'm not much of a Christian (born and raised, but have been keeping my distance with religion for some time now), and definitely not knowledgeable about numerology or Kabballah.

Regardless, I just wanted to say that while I tend to agree with Fekket and Sarasnee, and find the whole concept of trying to find hidden meanings in literature that is already riddled with meaning a little superfluous, I would be interested in the symbolic behind those numbers.

What I mean is this: hopefully I won't offend anyone by saying this, but I don't believe that the Bible is meant to be taken absolutely literally. Just as parables are fake stories used to convey a message, I believe large parts of the Bible are probably, although based on the truth... let us say, enhanced, so as to convey the desired message more efficiently.

Therefore, I believe it's possible that Jesus did not spend exactly 40 days and 40 nights in the desert, or Jonas, 3 days in a whale... Why not say "he spent a month in the desert" or "the weekend in the whale"? I'm sure the multiple authors selected their words carefully, and if they chose to write "40 days" or "4000 people", there must have been a reason. Did they really count the number of people in the crowd, or remember the exact number of days of each and every event? Perhaps, but personally, I doubt it. They chose those specific numbers for a reason, because they're generally symbols that convey a certain meaning, and that's what is, to me, interesting to uncover...

As you might realize, I'm a Literature major, I like recognizing symbols in books... and the Bible became one of the largest sources of symbols of all Western literatures! ;)

So anyway, I'm probably off-topic, I'll let you carry on with your spiritual discussion... that's just my two cents! :)

What I mean is this: hopefully I won't offend anyone by saying this, but I don't believe that the Bible is meant to be taken absolutely literally. Just as parables are fake stories used to convey a message, I believe large parts of the Bible are probably, although based on the truth... let us say, enhanced, so as to convey the desired message more efficiently.

-"VeroSwing"

Oh, you didn't offend me. More just made my eyes roll. I hear this same typical stuff so much, it gives me a headache.

Jocelain, two things: One, it's Illuminatus!. Two, if you're talking about noticing patterns, yeah, I see where you're coming from, but I'm twenty miles from calling it 'numerology'. Deliberate? Meaningful? Maybe. But 'numerology' has so many implications, especially the fortune-telling ones, which (last time I checked) are actually proscribed in the Bible.

Oops! Thanks for the clarification regarding Illuminatus!, FekketCantenel. No wonder I couldn't find the right thing when I googled it. I'd like to add a caution here, that your emotional reactions (eyes rolling, etc) may be counter-productive to a real discussion. At the same time, I appreciate your passion for the subject!

VeroSwing, thanks for joining in! Symbolism is such a fascinating subject, going back to Egyptian and Greek, Viking etc. mythology. I love your reference to parables. Jesus said he used these stories because "seeing, they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand". (Matt.13:13) They were also a tool to project from the old testament the profecies (typo) of the new testament. I'm focusing on Matthew right now, and really enjoying it.

Just a reminder that I use the term numerology very loosely; just looked for my reference to that in our discussion, and maybe I didn't clarify that. The word itself does seem to hit a nerve, so maybe we should steer away from it! As an opportunist, I can't resist pointing out a good example of the power of language! :)

No magic in 2+3 (23) being the same number as 5. Just a formula as old as the hills. All numbers digits reduce to a number between 1 and 9. There's much more to it mathematically speaking, but I'll leave you alone with this "same typical stuff" before your headache develops into a migraine! Interestingly, I used to feel the same way listening to people discuss the Bible... deep breath... 'men' have been challenging each other on the meaning of life for a long time.

Well, I'm not just going to sit by while somebody calls the Bible a load of helpful fairy tales. However, the only other actions I think I could take would be to lambaste Vero (counterproductive and offensive) or try to go into apologetics with him (which I doubt either of us is in the mood for, or he would pay attention to). Ergo, I joked, showed my disapproval without slapping anyone around.

I can't think of a catchy word for what you're describing with the patterns. 'Random numbers', 'number-hunting', I dunno. Somebody brainstorm a good one.

Verily I say unto you, jocelain, that if listening to somebody talk about the Bible (well, for more than four hours at a time, I'll allow) gives you a headache, you need to find a teacher who makes it come alive. I've heard a lot of really great stuff on SermonAudio.com; I recommend the sermons of Michael Voytek, Timothy Dane, and Paul McCallum. Stephen Hamilton is good, too, and has a nice Irish accent, but he tends to go on a lot about ecumenicalism being evil. However, all these know how to read and explain the Word in a way that really captivates you.

Um...I don't believe in any "Higher Power" or "GOD" but my opinion is that you should create your own belief not follow one some one tells you. Not saying that you should go start your own religion but i believe that religion is just the illusions of magicians. my imput

Riiiiiiiiight, and I'm throwing the same eyeroll at Zen Hippie. Go back to the 'Stoners talking shop' thread. ... I should be there, too, probably.

Whoa, you're brutal! :P :P I'm going to drop off this thread because it's lost it's camaraderie, and becoming WAY too personal! Ouch!

I didn't say listening to people discuss the bible gives me headaches NOW. At that point in my life I would have simply walked away. There are reasons for sermons or bible studies being an hour long for us "plebes". I'm having no problem enjoying it immensely at present, both on my own, in the company of the Holy Spirit, and once or twice a week in the company of 2 or more gathered in the name of God.

How Vero's cautious joining in could be labelled counterproductive and offensive is totally beyond me. This (original) thread is about Religion, spirituality and philosophy. Where's the open door? And ZenHippie is entitled totally to join in, without you trying to boot them off to another site. And you're a moderator?

Amen

Of course I'm brutal. Look at my signature. Hint: I gave myself that nickname.

Lost its camaraderie? Eh? ... Okay, rereading my joke @ Zen Hippie, yeah, I wasn't gentle enough. Maybe I should cut the BS. Here's basically what I'm trying to say:

The title of this thread is 'Christians talking shop'. It's a title bound to bring in people like ZH and Vero who just want to disagree with us without contributing anything to this specific topic. That's not 'talking shop'; that's 'going off-topic'. So when they wander in, I can either delete their post as off-topicness or, given the sensitive nature of deleting religion-related posts, I can do what I've been doing: I give them a gentle (as I can) hip-bounce. For the first six or so posts, this was a thread for Christians, and yet now it's turning into 'yeah well I don't even believe in that'. Why are you in this thread, then? Go find your own, darnit!

Maybe I should have freaking known better than to start an honest-to-goodness thread on a religion and expect not to be jabbed with the same stuff people usually post in them. Granted, ZH and Vero were gentler than most (Lise hasn't shown up yet, though), but for some reason, I still held out a hope that they'd mind their own business.

Don't try to paint me as starting a clique, here, either. If I started a thread about apples, I wouldn't want somebody barging in between our Macintoshes and Granny Greens and starting on about how oranges are better. It's about apples.

Do I go into the threads on Buddhism and Zen and start implying that they're unbiblical heathens? No, because 1) I know jack about those things, and 2) it's rude. So what I'm asking is that if anyone wants to post here, they'd better have something to contribute to the subject of the thread. That's called 'staying on-topic'.

Vero's post contributed on symbolism, yes, but was mildly offensive to the "Christian" part of the topic, so I chided him. ZH's post was completely irrelevant, but I went ahead and just chided him, too (with a stoner joke! Those are always funny, right? Ignatowski, people!). Change the topic at hand to anything secular and I'd have done the exact same thing.

How Vero's cautious joining in could be labelled counterproductive and offensive is totally beyond me.

... You misread my sentence. What I meant was "the only other actions I think I could take would be to lambaste Vero (which would be counterproductive and offensive)". You just mentally turned me into a complete witch by not seeing the grammar there.

As for what ZH posted, if somebody wants to start a Jessie Ventura-esque thread about how Christians are sheep (which was what he was implying, albeit lightly), they can go ahead. I'll delete it if it's outright offensive (and therefore doesn't belong in this forum), but otherwise, go ahead. Thing is, it doesn't belong here.

Now, if nobody goes back to the original topic (you might have to backtrack to find it), I'm locking this thread. Maybe I'll delete it, too, since it's turned into you (jocelain) bullying me for not bland-facedly sitting back while people talk crap (or for not encouraging it as you do). I have to be honest: I'm so freaking angry at you right now, all three of you, that I'm crying and I want to scream. I should have known better than to think I could talk about this stuff without getting bullied over it. I need to force myself to stop typing now, since I've already made an idiot of myself just by defending what I said. You all can go stick it in your hats. I'm done.

Wow... I just wanted to apologize for starting such a heated dicussion. Somehow this all started with my post.

Just a few clarifications, because perhaps my intentions weren't clear when I first posted, and also, I really don't enjoy being bashed in my absence:
1) I AM a Christian. I don't practise much anymore, mainly because up here (in Québec) religion has been associated with a lot of bad things in the past, and the churches are all disappearing, most of the priests are really old and the sermons never relate to anything contemporary anymore.

2) I think everyone is entitled to their opinions, whether Christian or not, and didn't appreciate you saying that "we" (i.e. non-christians) should "mind our own business"...

3) Now, I was extremely careful when choosing my words, and I'm quite sure I never said that the Bible was "a load of helpful fairy tales". What I said was that although many stories might be true, the specific numbers in them might have been adapted to give greater meaning and convey the symbolism more efficiently. That's hardly fairy tales.

4) I'm a "she". (And not a swinger, before that comes up, I'm a swing dancer.)

Jocelain, thank you for remaining cool-tempered throughout this discussion, you must be a very well-balanced person, I greatly admire that (and have been struggling to better myself as well...).

Weird how it never occurred to me that you might be a girl. For some reason, 'VeroSwing' sounds very masculine, in a Tony Hawk sort of way.

I wasn't bashing you in your absense. I hadn't seen any 'okay I'm disappearing for a while' (a la Jon, recently, and I miss him) messages from you, so I figured you'd get back to the thread eventually.

Don't think Quebec is the only place where religion is looked down on. I live in the Bible Belt and I'm still hosed with disapproval constantly. The trick is to not care. And I started off that way here, too, just joking around, until somebody (emerging passive aggression! yay!) turned around and said 'you're doing it wrong'.

Churches disappearing is a harsh deal, dude. Maybe you need to seek out a new one (or heck, get together with some people and start one! Add 'reformed' to the name and people will be reassured). If there's none of your specific denomination, you might be able to find a nondenominational church or settle for a separate one. Alternative: Move down here! I'm happy to say we've got one on every streetcorner.

I told you (or, to be fair, mostly ZH) to 'mind your own business' in this thread. Reread my rant about staying on-topic for the reason.

You make a good point about the difference between 'fairy tales' and 'numbers might have been fudged'. However, I see the latter as the top of a slippery slope that could logically lead to the former. After all, if the stories aren't 100% true, why were they fudged at all? What if bigger details were changed? What if they were made up from whole cloth? What if the whole book is just helpful fairy tales? See what I did there?

Come on, up until I lost it in my last post, I've been cool-tempered, too. For some reason, people had a problem with that, so I got on my soapbox and suddenly people are paying attention. Now, nobody's ever going to accuse me of being well-balanced, but I think I deserve a little more credit than that. I'm not a loose cannon. Just a jiggly one.

Edit: It just occurred to me that I'd like to know how one goes about starting a church. Does anyone know the legal and practical stuff involved? How to name them? (Does it have to be the first in town to be called 'First X Church'?)